tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27405843.post115626192555772947..comments2024-01-25T05:44:34.896+02:00Comments on God in a Shrinking Universe: Who belongs to the Church?Patrikhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10237545786695465374noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27405843.post-1156881928615964392006-08-29T23:05:00.000+03:002006-08-29T23:05:00.000+03:00I like your definition for belonging to the Church...I like your definition for belonging to the Church, Patrik. In the context of un-, under-, and de-churched people, some of whom may be baptized but not Christian, and some of whom may be "seekers" who identify with the Gospel but cannot approach the institution, it's quite useful to consider how central the Church's narrative and sacraments are for a person. That is a fairly effective rubric for membership, I think.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27405843.post-1156397599391276222006-08-24T08:33:00.000+03:002006-08-24T08:33:00.000+03:00Aaron, I agree with your pastoral concern, but I a...Aaron, I agree with your pastoral concern, but I am not sure in is an institutional affirmation that is needed: rather it is the help from another person to come a subjective decision.Patrikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10237545786695465374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27405843.post-1156387266798446962006-08-24T05:41:00.000+03:002006-08-24T05:41:00.000+03:00Oh, and Aaron: good point about the need for objec...Oh, and Aaron: good point about the need for objective assurance. This is where public reading of Scripture is also important: hearing afresh <I>from outside oneself</I> of God's gracious initiative.byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27405843.post-1156387161378988012006-08-24T05:39:00.000+03:002006-08-24T05:39:00.000+03:00Patrik: Yes - both indeed. Real blessings, but eve...Patrik: Yes - both indeed. <I>Real</I> blessings, but every <I>Spiritual</I> blessing (Eph 1.3). That they are Spiritual (from the Spirit) does not mean that they are not real (!) - a point that needs to be made in a reductionist world (notice I didn't say in a materialist world - because I don't think that Spiritual is to be straightforwardly opposed by material). Yet that they are Spiritual means that they belong to the Spirit of God's hidden wisdom, the Spirit and wisdom of the age to come (1 Cor 1-2). This kept from being a new gnosticism by incarnation and resurrection: the new age is not the overthrow or replacement of the old, but is its (hidden) culmination, its renewal, its resurrection.byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27405843.post-1156385034980355372006-08-24T05:03:00.000+03:002006-08-24T05:03:00.000+03:00Thanks for the clarification, Patrik! I agree that...Thanks for the clarification, Patrik!<BR/><BR/> I agree that an individual's decision whether they are a "Christian" is probably more imperative than an institutional decision. However, there are times when the individual is plagued by doubt/guilt/existential conflict, and the institution is able to "objectively" say, "No, you ARE forgiven; you are beloved; you are accepted."::aaron g::https://www.blogger.com/profile/03849988327077565616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27405843.post-1156336091543291252006-08-23T15:28:00.000+03:002006-08-23T15:28:00.000+03:00byron, I agree completely with you comment, perhap...byron, I agree completely with you comment, perhaps I could have emphasized that the benefits of being a Christian are not straightforward, and especially that they are not easy to see for someone who does not believe in them. <BR/><BR/>Its a balancing act, because if we keep salvation to closely tied to practical life, we may end up in the kind of theology that promises health and riches to the faithful. On the other hand, if we do not believe there is something useful about believing all we have left is blind submission, and I don't think that is what Christianity is about. <BR/><BR/>I wrote more about this in another <A HREF="http://shrinkinguni.blogspot.com/2006/05/god-what-is-it-good-for.html" REL="nofollow">post</A> earlier.Patrikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10237545786695465374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27405843.post-1156335159900136862006-08-23T15:12:00.000+03:002006-08-23T15:12:00.000+03:00A person belongs to the Church if he or she believ...<I>A person belongs to the Church if he or she believes that the use of the biblical narrative and the participation in the sacraments and worship of the Church is helpful in overcoming the existential problems encountered in life.</I><BR/><BR/>Thanks for this post. I wonder about the language of 'benefit' you include in the definition. While certainly not disputing the massive blessings that flow from life in Christ, I wonder whether one of them is a clearer picture of the problems from which one is rescued in the first place. That is, I am not convinced that the gospel is a straightforward answer to the felt existential needs of humanity. While it does ultimately answer those needs (or the needs behind them), sometimes it does this through transforming our vision of what it is that we do really need. This can perhaps be described as the death of the self ('I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me...').<BR/><BR/>Would love to hear your thoughts on this. Keep it up.byron smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17938334606675769903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27405843.post-1156316170682887412006-08-23T09:56:00.000+03:002006-08-23T09:56:00.000+03:00Yes, that was a bit unclear wasn't it? 1. Regardin...Yes, that was a bit unclear wasn't it? <BR/><BR/>1. Regarding the Eucharist my point is that The Church can uphold this tradition, but it is the individual, not the Church that is deciding at that moment who is a Christian. For the Church, that someone wishes to participate should be enough. <BR/><BR/>2. It is precisely because some people do not want to be treated as members that there needs to be an objective criterion in some cases. This is about respecting the integrity of the individual, not about protecting the "purity" of the Church.Patrikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10237545786695465374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27405843.post-1156288344032123722006-08-23T02:12:00.000+03:002006-08-23T02:12:00.000+03:00Hello Patrik.I like this post and agree with a lot...Hello Patrik.<BR/><BR/>I like this post and agree with a lot of it. However, I have a couple of questions:<BR/><BR/>1. You say the church deny turn anyone away, including turning them away from the Eucharist, BUT also that we can 'admit only Christians' to receive the Eucharist.<BR/><BR/>2. You understand that 'some people do not want to be treated as members' BUT you also say 'there needs to be...objective criterion of Church membership.'::aaron g::https://www.blogger.com/profile/03849988327077565616noreply@blogger.com